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Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy deposit on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the pattern of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off fine.
Epson 2200, Epson ink. I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes under a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame. I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it stays in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
Alan Justice wrote: > Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy deposit > on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a > regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the pattern > of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off fine.
> Epson 2200, Epson ink. I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes under > a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the > glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame. > I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it stays > in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
> -- > - Alan Justice
I had a similar issue, and I believe in my case it was vapors from the glass cleaner. To test that theory, I pulled the frame apart, cleaned the glass (again) with Windex, and let it sit out in the air for several days before reassembling the picture. The problem did not come back.
So I'd recommend you let the freshly cleaned glass air dry for a longer time before mounting. See if that makes a difference.
It's a known problem. It's the paper. If you use a RC paper or a paper with no porus substrate, the inks don't dry. Inkjet inks almost never dry at all, even at plain paper. It needs further drying (it is said a month) or use your heat press (touching of course) [I suppose 10 min at 140 C could do the job, try it]. Another choice is to change the paper. I don't know more.
-- Yianni i...@mailbox9.gr (remove number nine to send me email)
"Alan Justice" <s...@spamspamspam.spam> wrote in message
> Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy > deposit > on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a > regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the > pattern > of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off > fine.
> Epson 2200, Epson ink. I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes > under > a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the > glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame. > I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it > stays > in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
Alan Justice wrote: > Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy deposit > on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a > regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the pattern > of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off fine.
> Epson 2200, Epson ink. I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes under > a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the > glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame. > I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it stays > in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
Pigment inks contain very slow evaporating "coalescing solvents" (glycol ethers). The solvents act to slowly fuze the resin binder together after the water has evaporated from the ink. This is why it takes time - several days - for the printed surface to gain water and mar resistant properties. (prints on RC photo papers straight out or the printer are quite easily scratched, and although they have some water resistance, after a day or so drying they are much more resistant - effectively water proof) These solvents take days to evaporate. If the print is framed before they have evaporated fully, then they can condense of the glass surface. The solution is to allow a reasonable time (perhaps a week) after printing before framing behind glass.
Alan Justice wrote: >Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy deposit >on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a >regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the pattern >of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off fine.
I would love to say it is the ink if you are using generic ink but it is most probably the paper if the ink is coming from a dye printer and and the paper you are using is microceramic nanopourous paper. When printed there is gas fade and that may be what you are experienceing. To reduce this you should either let your prints dry out for a few days before framing. You could also use a swellable type paper like Illford Galerie Classic Pearl (still let it dry for a day or two) and you should not experience this. But beware that papers like the Classic are not meant for pigmented ink if that is what you are using.
>Epson 2200, Epson ink.
Well if you are using that you are using pigmented ink.
>I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes under >a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the >glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame. >I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it stays >in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
> I would love to say it is the ink if you are using generic ink but it is > most probably the paper if the ink is coming from a dye printer and and > the paper you are using is microceramic nanopourous paper. When printed > there is gas fade and that may be what you are experienceing. To reduce > this you should either let your prints dry out for a few days before > framing. You could also use a swellable type paper like Illford Galerie > Classic Pearl (still let it dry for a day or two) and you should not > experience this. But beware that papers like the Classic are not meant > for pigmented ink if that is what you are using.
>> Epson 2200, Epson ink.
> Well if you are using that you are using pigmented ink.
....
> I still think it is the paper.
>> -- >> - Alan Justice
It's not the paper - see my post above. The original poster should NOT use a swellable paper (like Ilford Galerie Classic Pearl) with Epson Ultrachome inks. Apart from looking terrible, the surface will scratch so easily that you can virtually wipe the ink off the paper with your finger. Gas fade is a separate and unrelated issue.
I waited 3 days to two weeks after printing before mounting. I use Epson Premium Glossy paper (is that "swellable"?), Epson ink. (I never had significant problems with scratching using Epson inks, only with MediaStreet ink.) I always frame immediately after cleaning the glass with Glass Plus or Windex. I don't let the heat press touch the photo when drying (4 min. at 190 deg.) so there is room for moisture to escape. I do that step with dry mount under the photo. After drying I then immediately press. I use acid-free dry mount, also press for 4 min. at 190 deg. (longer and hotter than manufacturer-reccommended, but it just did not adhere with less. I still get occasional bubbling months later.)
The pattern of fogging on the glass suggests it isn't just fumes from the photo coming off: They would be relatively uniform in the space between the photo and the glass (created by 4-ply mat), and certainly not in the bizarre patterns I saw (vertical fuzzy bars about every inch and "brain surface" pattern, with "sulci" a few millimeters apart). I suspect now that, even though I let the cleaner dry "completely," any invisible residue could have dried by contracting to a pattern, like crystals. At that point, the fogging could be either from the cleaner alone, or from the photo. If the latter, it deposits preferentially on the surface where there is cleaner residue. So maybe everyone was right. My training is as a scientist, so maybe I'll do a controlled experiment (e.g., clean only half the glass just before framing, use fresh vs. aged photos, etc.)
-- - Alan Justice
"Alan Justice" <s...@spamspamspam.spam> wrote in message
> Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy deposit > on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a > regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the pattern > of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off fine.
> Epson 2200, Epson ink. I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes under > a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the > glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame. > I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it stays > in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
> I waited 3 days to two weeks after printing before mounting. I use Epson > Premium Glossy paper (is that "swellable"?), Epson ink. (I never had > significant problems with scratching using Epson inks, only with > MediaStreet > ink.) I always frame immediately after cleaning the glass with Glass Plus > or Windex. I don't let the heat press touch the photo when drying (4 min. > at 190 deg.) so there is room for moisture to escape. I do that step with > dry mount under the photo. After drying I then immediately press. I use > acid-free dry mount, also press for 4 min. at 190 deg. (longer and hotter > than manufacturer-reccommended, but it just did not adhere with less. I > still get occasional bubbling months later.)
> The pattern of fogging on the glass suggests it isn't just fumes from the > photo coming off: They would be relatively uniform in the space between > the > photo and the glass (created by 4-ply mat), and certainly not in the > bizarre > patterns I saw (vertical fuzzy bars about every inch and "brain surface" > pattern, with "sulci" a few millimeters apart). I suspect now that, even > though I let the cleaner dry "completely," any invisible residue could > have > dried by contracting to a pattern, like crystals. At that point, the > fogging could be either from the cleaner alone, or from the photo. If the > latter, it deposits preferentially on the surface where there is cleaner > residue. So maybe everyone was right. My training is as a scientist, so > maybe I'll do a controlled experiment (e.g., clean only half the glass > just > before framing, use fresh vs. aged photos, etc.)
> -- > - Alan Justice
> "Alan Justice" <s...@spamspamspam.spam> wrote in message > news:pmhOg.7567$v%4.1572@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net... >> Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy > deposit >> on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a >> regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the > pattern >> of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off > fine.
>> Epson 2200, Epson ink. I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes > under >> a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the >> glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame. >> I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it > stays >> in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
>> -- >> - Alan Justice
Alan - I've just used a tiny amount of dishwasher soap - the type you would put on a sponge to wash dishes - and hot water. I put the glass in the kitchen sink and wash and rinse it there. I then dry it with an old dishtowel, let it further air dry, and complete the framing process. You might try a few framing jobs without the use of a glass cleaner and see if you still see the deposits on the glass later.
There are several possible causes of this phenomenon.
The window cleaner has glycols in it.
The ink gasses off glycols for months after the print leaves the printer (especially with Ultrachrome inks)
The way glass is manufactured today, and especially inexpensive glass, it is rolled between two metal rollers to make the sheet. These rollers are oiled to keep the glass from sticking. This oil can get integrated into the surface of the glass causing both a pattern and sometimes a slight undulation in the surface. It usually is only visible under certain lighting angles, or when it is partially damp.
Alan Justice wrote: > Thanks for all the thoughts.
> I waited 3 days to two weeks after printing before mounting. I use Epson > Premium Glossy paper (is that "swellable"?), Epson ink. (I never had > significant problems with scratching using Epson inks, only with MediaStreet > ink.) I always frame immediately after cleaning the glass with Glass Plus > or Windex. I don't let the heat press touch the photo when drying (4 min. > at 190 deg.) so there is room for moisture to escape. I do that step with > dry mount under the photo. After drying I then immediately press. I use > acid-free dry mount, also press for 4 min. at 190 deg. (longer and hotter > than manufacturer-reccommended, but it just did not adhere with less. I > still get occasional bubbling months later.)
> The pattern of fogging on the glass suggests it isn't just fumes from the > photo coming off: They would be relatively uniform in the space between the > photo and the glass (created by 4-ply mat), and certainly not in the bizarre > patterns I saw (vertical fuzzy bars about every inch and "brain surface" > pattern, with "sulci" a few millimeters apart). I suspect now that, even > though I let the cleaner dry "completely," any invisible residue could have > dried by contracting to a pattern, like crystals. At that point, the > fogging could be either from the cleaner alone, or from the photo. If the > latter, it deposits preferentially on the surface where there is cleaner > residue. So maybe everyone was right. My training is as a scientist, so > maybe I'll do a controlled experiment (e.g., clean only half the glass just > before framing, use fresh vs. aged photos, etc.)
>>Twice now (out of many dozens of pictures framed) I've seen a cloudy
> deposit
>>on the inside of the glass over the photo (not over rag mat). It's in a >>regular pattern (one was vertical fuzzy stripes, the other like the
> pattern
>>of a brain). My best guess is it's something in the ink. Cleans off
> fine.
>>Epson 2200, Epson ink. I let them dry a few days, then dry 4 minutes
> under
>>a heat press (not touching) before mounting with dry mount. I clean the >>glass meticulously with Glass Plus, and use a paper backing on the frame. >>I'm in a wet area (N. California coast), but it isn't moisture, as it
> stays
>>in that same pattern for weeks. No direct sunlight. Any guesses?
